April 11, 2013
DUNHAM: The last time we met was in Gorkha, several months
after the 2008 elections. That interview covered your life from early childhood
to becoming Gorkha’s first female Deputy Police Superintendent. Basically, I’d
like to pick up from where that interview left off, because you have done many
interesting things since then. [CLICK HERE for First Interview with Gita Upreti.] Where did you go after your transfer from Gorkha?
UPRETI: I came back here, to Kathmandu headquarters in the
training department. Specifically, I returned to the Women and Children Service
Center.
DUNHAM: Did you believe that improvements had been made for
women, since you left Kathmandu?
UPRETI: After the election there was a period of great hope
for women. Women were expecting more improvement. They were looking for
opportunity. They felt that the door was open. Social awareness of women’s
issues, among women, had also improved. They were more aware of their rights.
It was really encouraging. 197 women parliamentarians had become members of the
CA [Constituent Assembly]. And in the early months after the election, we were
all excited. The CA brought forward many issues about women. They talked about
social inclusion. They were talking about women representation within the
leadership and the decision-making level. The CA even brought a few women into
the leadership.
Even within the police, they brought a few women into the
decision-making level. Based on positive discrimination, they got
promoted.
All of that was good. But you know, the continuation of sustainable development is more important. And
the continuation of development wasn’t forthcoming. I mean, OK, just having a
few women in positions of importance in the CA really didn’t add up to a
significant change. That was my personal feeling.
DUNHAM: A lot of talk but no action?
UPRETI: Yes. It was like the male leaders were saying,
“We’ve given you some good positions now don’t interfere – be happy what we
have given you.”
DUNHAM: And what about the police department?
UPRETI: Yes, if you are talking about within the police department,
the answer is yes: There were significant changes for the better. When I first
worked at the Women and Children Center, the men could and would say, “Hey, you
and your women’s rights are talking rubbish.” Now, everybody likes to talk about gender issues, gender-based
violence. If the high-ranking officer doesn’t know about the issue, they will
look ignorant. So now they think, “I need to talk about gender issues to look
professional.” That’s how it is now. It is qualified improvement. But we still
have a long way to go.
As I said, when I came back from Gorkha, I was involved with
developing training programs. I said, “Why don’t we change the curriculum? The
times have changed.”
DUNHAM: What specific changes were you advocating?
UPRETI: There are three different levels of training
curriculum in our department. One is for police constables, one for assistant
sub-inspectors and one is for inspectors. I was stationed at the training
directorate so I did have access to decision-making. And I advocated a new
comprehensive curriculum that talked about how to deal with the female and
child victims of gender-based violence, like domestic violence, sexual abuse,
child exploitation and juvenile justice.
Under my direction, a team was formed to review that curriculum.
And finally the issue of women and children was included. And I’m happy to say
that that’s now in the curriculum. It’s quite extensive.
DUNHAM: What about the number of policewomen? Has it
increased in Nepal? Female victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse need
to have woman officers to help them. In Gorkha, I remember you talking about
how awful it was for victims to have to report their abuse cases to male
officers, who did not sympathize, who did not believe and who often made the
women feel shame.
UPRETI: Yes, at that time, the Women and Children Service
Center was not incorporated into the structure of the police system. But now it is included. Now it is a permanent
part of the system. I also trained male officers, which is very important, in
order to sensitize them to women’s issues. But to answer your question, out of
the entire new recruitment within the police force, 45% of the positions are
reserved for various marginalized groups. Within that 45%, 20% are women.
That’s the mandate. But when you break it down, still only 9% of the new
recruits are women.
It’s a big change, but…..
DUNHAM: Today, how many women inspectors are in the police
force?
UPRETI: Not more than twenty. And most of them are in the
Kathmandu Valley. We have 75 districts in Nepal. So you can see that women are
not properly represented in the higher ranks.
DUNHAM: How long were you here in Kathmandu with the Women
and Children Service Center??
UPRETI: One year. After that, I went to Darfur, Sadan. It
was 2009-2010.
DUNHAM: You went as a Deputy Superintendent of Police under
the umbrella of the United Nations?
UPRETI: Yes.
DUNHAM: What was it like being a woman officer in Darfur?
UPRETI: (Laughing). It was quite a shock in the beginning. I
was assigned as a gender officer. We used to conduct “confidence-building
patrols”.
DUNHAM: What did that mean?
UPRETI: Basically, we were there to explain to the locals why we were there as UN police. Later, I got a new job
as Reform and Restructuring officer. It was about restructuring or changing
what the local police thought about police work.
You have to understand: The people of Darfur have fought
their whole lives. Even the local police had no idea what real police work was.
What does rule of law mean? They didn’t know. What about human rights? They
didn’t know. What is community policing? They don’t know. Even, what is
investigation? They didn’t know. The local police were in an extremely
preliminary stage of development.
I was in charge of four branches: human rights, the
community policing section, the gender section and coordination and cooperation
between the local police and the UN force. It allowed us to have meetings,
trainings, conferences, and things like that.
DUNHAM: Was it a challenge between the two groups in terms
of sharing information with one another?
UPRETI: Oh! In the beginning, the people would not talk to
you! You are a police officer! They saw the UN police as the enemy. It was as
if they thought we were going in there to destroy their entire culture, the
religion and the entire system within which they operated in daily life. Live
there is ordered around the teachings of the Koran. That is the real law.
And it was part of our duty to bridge that gap of
understanding – to build trust. Obviously, without trust, you can’t do
anything. We were strangers trying not to be strangers.
But, again, the most important challenge for us was that
Darfur was and is totally under Sharia Law [the moral code and religious law of
Islam].
DUNHAM: A foreign female police officer dealing with
Muslims: That must have been doubly or triply challenging.
UPRETI: Exactly. Oh my god. I have never had to work so hard
to build rapport with other people. I went with my fellow UN police officers to
the community so that I could talk to the locals. But the community refused to
talk to me because I was a woman. I was embarrassed. At that time, I was the
only female officer among the group. And in that group, the men were from many
different countries: Nigeria, Ghana, Zambia, Gambia, and Kenya. And they, my
fellow officers, hesitated to talk to me, too, because I was a female.
But I kept going back to the communities and, eventually, I
was able to build some rapport. And after one or two months, it was really nice
to work with them. They welcomed me at their training academy. And finally I
said, “Can we now conduct some training that you like?” And their answer was,
“Well, maybe yes, maybe no. We have to talk the training director.”
Another obstacle was that they were very conscious about
rank and file. Higher-ranking officers would not talk to lower-ranking
officers. It was very rigid. If there was a female officer, they would not
speak to you. They were very concerned about protocol. And we had to maintain
that protocol.
Later, we conduct a human rights training. Also, we spoke
about investigation, community policing and gender policing.
Eventually, though, we were able to coordinate with them. We
were able to form a women’s police network. At every one of those training, we
brought with us women police officers. In the beginning, at the academy, they
said, “Oh, our women officers are not that interested in having a training.”
But we told them to bring in the women anyway. As it turned out, the female
officers were so smart and they, the Sudanese policewomen connected with the UN
policewomen network quite well. We finally could talk to them informally as
well as formally. It was really, really nice at the end.
DUNHAM: Did you visit the IDP (Internally Displaced Persons)
camps?
UPRETI: Oh yes. The women in the camps used to come up to us
and feel our arms to see if we were really women. Oh my god, they couldn’t
believe that we were female officers. It really excited them. On the other
hand, if there were males around they wouldn’t speak to us. Even if you were a
male officer with the UN, the men in the IDPs would not allow the women to
speak. At first we didn’t understand. When we came, they would go inside and
wouldn’t come out.
So we told them, “We are females, like you. You can tell us
the problems you are having here in the camps.” So we women police officers
went in a group, without men, to talk to the women in the camps.
And eventually, we made real headway. I was able to train
the women in the camps to become community volunteers. They could wear jackets,
patrol at night. If something happened they would call us and we would send
help to address the problem.
DUNHAM: The women were the ones policing the camps?
UPRETI: Most of the volunteers were men but there were also
a few women volunteers. Still, just having a few women involved was really
something.
DUNHAM: You were in Sudan for two years?
UPRETI: Fourteen months. I returned to Kathmandu and was posted at headquarters, this
time in the legal section, which looks after the code of conduct. Then I got
promoted to Superintendent of Police (SP) and became the first woman SP to head
a district.
DUNHAM: The Kavre District.
UPRETI: That’s right.
DUNHAM: Just this week in the local papers was a story about
several rape cases in Kavre. Is the violence against women in Kavre any greater
than cases in other districts, or is it more or less typical of other
districts?
UPRETI: Kavre is not typical. It has two highways and a
higher rate of criminality than most other districts. Also, because of the
highways, the criminals use Kavre as a transit point. They can go to
Tibet-China to the north using the Araniko highway. And to the south is the
Dhulikhel-Sindhuli highway, which leads into the Terai and the Indian Border
DUNHAM: When you say transit point, are you talking about
the movement of drugs, or sex trafficking or other illegal products?
UPRETI: I’m talking about illegal trade in wildlife, red
sandalwood, even gold. When I was transferred to Kavre, no one but me believed
that gold was being moved through the district. Nobody believed that gold was
coming illegally from China. But under my watch, I caught nine kilos of gold,
coming from China to Kathmandu. It was an historic seizure that I made.
DUNHAM: Was it gold bullion?
UPRETI: Yes. And I got into a lot of trouble – a lot of
pressure – for capturing that gold…as if I had made a mistake. But my procedure
was totally correct, thorough and I was very personally involved in making that
arrest and confiscation.
DUNHAM: How? How did you go about that?
UPRETI: I personally checked hundreds of vehicles on the
highway at night, myself. It was very unusual for a Superintendent of Police to
go out into the field and do that kind of work. But I did. I got some information
that something was coming from China into Nepal. So I stood in the middle of
the road at night with my colleagues. A male SP would have just sent someone
else to go and check. But I didn’t trust anyone and I said, “I have to go there
myself.” I started checking cars at midnight. At the checkpoint, I stopped and
searched every car, until I found the car with gold in. The driver was Nepali
DUNHAM: I hope the driver is now behind bars.
UPRETI: Yes, he must be. But this in Nepal: You never know.
DUNHAM: You don’t know where he is?
UPRETI: You never know.
DUNHAM: Let’s talk about other contraband: the wildlife and
the sandalwood. It is going in the opposite direction: from Nepal to China.
Right?
UPRETI: Right. After I took over in Kavre I was really
surprised. It was not just tigers and sandalwood. Everything was going to
China. You can’t imagine. Wildlife, human hair, sunakhari [rare orchids] , many kinds of herbs…I confiscated
25 kilos of rare orchids one time!
DUNHAM: What about sex trafficking?
UPRETI: You would be surprised. You always hear about girls
being trafficked to India. But it’s not just India. It’s also in China. Have
you heard about it?
DUNHAM: Yeh, I’ve heard about it. There’s a big market for
girls in China because of the “one-child” policy, which has been in place in
China for many years. Since parents can only have one child, they often abort
female fetuses until they get a son. So now, many years later, there are all
these young men who don’t have any women to marry. When I was working
undercover in Cambodia in 2004, raiding brothels that housed under-aged girls,
many of those girls were actually on their way to China to be sold to men
there. I know all about it. But I didn’t know they were being move through
Nepal to China. [For the story of my undercover work in Cambodia, CLICK HERE.
UPRETI: I see.
DUNHAM: Is Kavre district an origin district or simply a
transit district for illegally trafficked girls?
UPRETI: Both. Girls do originate from Kavre and
Sindhupalchowk districts. Some of the girls come from the Tamang community…not
all, but they are certainly an easy target for traffickers. Girls are a very
big market in Khasa [Nepali-Tibetan border town just inside the China border.]
Once the girls are transported to China, they are not allowed to return to
Nepal.
DUNHAM: As SP, have you caught traffickers in action in
Kavre?
UPRETI: No.
DUNHAM: What about domestic violence in Kavre?
UPRETI: It’s very high – much higher than most other
districts. Kavre is developed and adjacent to Kathmandu. The people are
educated. The land is fertile. 50% of the vegetables coming to Kathmandu come
from Kavre.
Still, the domestic violence and suicide rate is very high.
DUNHAM: Are the rates going up because there is an actually
increase, or is it more a matter of the incidents being reported at a high
rate?
UPRETI: Exactly. The cases were always there but they
weren’t reported…until recently. There was no system or access for women. Now
there is a Woman and Children Service Center. Now, there is an actual physical
location where women can go to report. That makes a big difference.
DUNHAM: Are the women committing suicide in Kavre of
reproductive age or does suicide occur in all ages?
UPRETI: All ages, even seventy-five-year old women.
DUNHAM: What’s the most common way for a woman in Nepal to
commit suicide?
UPRETI: Poison is the most common and hanging is in second
place. Oh my god, when I went to Kavre and saw the data, I was shocked. There
were certain villages in which the suicide rate was much higher than in other
villages. So I targeted these villages and conducted an awareness campaign. And
the communities were so happy when they realized that they had a Women and
Children Service Center available to them. They said, “There is someone who
will listen to us, now. Instead of people just blaming us for being victims of
abuse.”
DUNHAM: It’s nice to have a place to go to where you won’t
be judged.
UPRETI: Yes.
DUNHAM: Are there drop-in centers in Kavre, where women will
be safe from their abusers?
UPRETI: Yes, there are safe houses.
DUNHAM: How long are the women allowed to stay there?
UPRETI: Initially they can stay for one month and then they
can extend it for another fifteen days. But it’s still not enough. The Domestic
Violence Act is not a strong enough law to truly protect the women.
DUNHAM: Especially if the woman has to leave the safe house
after only one month – with no place to go but back to the house where her
husband, who beat her in the first place, is waiting for her.
UPRETI: Yes, it’s very sad. We all agree that the Domestic
Violence Act was a good first step, but it is not enough.
DUNHAM: I’ve heard that one of the problems is the judicial
system, once the case has been filed. The women go to court, time and again,
only to be told that the hearing has been postponed again and again. And
eventually the postponements simply wear the women down and they drop the case.
The legal system lets them down.
UPETRI: Yes, and I’ll give you an example. A nine-year-old
girl was raped in Kavre. The case was filed. The police took all the proper
statements and followed proper proceedure. Then we sent those documents to the
court. But, still that case has not gone to trial.
DUNHAM: When was the case filed?
UPETRI: Two or three years! Now, she doesn’t understand what
has happened to her. When her case finally goes to trial, she will be thirteen
or fourteen, and it will be very painful for her. She will be stigmatized. It’s
terrible. If her case could have been heard immediately, when she was still
nine, it would have been much easier on her. But, no, she’s had to go back to court, time and time again.
Think about it! Let’s say that it finally comes to trial
after four years, what effect will than have on her? She’ll be fourteen. A
teenager! And she’ll have to go through the entire rape incident again. To
relive her rape victimization! She will be re-victimized! She might decide that
“the rape was my mistake.” And think what it will do to her, as a teenager, to
have to expose herself in front of the court. Wouldn’t it have been much easier
on her if she had had the trial at nine? By now, all of that would be in the
past.
DUNHAM: What about incest cases?
UPRETI: There are now many more cases reported. Now, the
child abuse cases and the resultant punishment of the perpetrator are very high.
In terms of punishment, if it is a rape case, the man is
sentenced for seven years. But if he rapes a child, the prison term is at least
ten years. Maybe the increase in punishment is one of the reasons that child
abuse cases have risen.
DUNHAM: How long will you remain in Kavre?
UPRETI: I retired last week!
DUNHAM: No one told me. Wow.
UPRETI: I’m now free. After 30 years in the police force,
there is compulsory retirement. So now I’m jumping into social work.
DUNHAM: Here in the Valley?
UPRETI: Yes, probably. I’ll be working in the jail system
with the prisoners. I have already registered an NGO.
DUNHAM: What made you decide to go into that line of work?
UPRETI: As a police chief, I saw the conditions of the
prisoners, how they were treated and when they are released, how low their
expectations are. Where will they go? The families might blame them, they might
blame themselves. If someone is inside a prison for twenty years, where is
there family when they finally get out? Who will accept them? Once again, they
must face the stigma society places on them.
There are already services available inside the prisons. But
I don’t believe that their services are adequate.
DUNHAM: You will be concentrating on re-habilitation?
UPRETI: Well, some of the existing organizations provide
skill training, but it is not comprehensive. You also need counseling on life skills to be able to face
the outside world. That’s what I want to concentrate on.
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